There Are 16 Responses So Far. »

1. Comment by Tom Clarke on 18 December 2008:

   Yes, it was a good post (in which he bemoans the fact that so many expats have a negative view of Catalan) but I shouldn’t think the committee’s report will have any effect on those who are already opposed to the Generalitat’s language policies… case in point: this blog post.

   You refer to the committee’s findings “The experts judge that education systems need to be based on a ‘total immersion’ in the co-official language and therefore fully justify, for example, the use of Catalan as the first language in schools here.” but you don’t really say what you think about these findings. I take it that you consider the committee to be mistaken or somehow misled and because of this you disagree with what it says.

   I must also say that for Life In Catalonia to retain an appearance of being unbiased, you really should point out that the least savoury comments on your blog seem to have come from the anti-Catalan language brigade. They always seem so angry!
2. 

   Comment by Rab on 20 December 2008:

   Tom, this blog has not understood anything.
   As the Spanish idiom goes…”no hay más ciego que el que no quiere ver”.

   Here is a thought: Spanish is a “foreign language” to Catalonia in the sense that it is only co-oficial due to a combination of centuries of political repression by the Spanish state of the Catalan language and imposition of Spanish instead, and massive scale XX century immigration from other areas of Spain at a time Catalan was banned.
   (My parents are from Andalucia so anyone thinking about hurling cheap jibes must find more robust counter-arguments…)

   Spanish has 2-3 hours a week, and that’s enough since there is not a single pupil who leaves school in Catalonia without being fluent in Spanish. However, every year, there are hundreds of school leavers that are not fluent in Catalan. Moreover, according to the Ministerio de Educación, Catalan students are no worse in Spanish than pupils from other areas of Spain, so what is the big fuss?
   The big fuss is that Catalan is not (yet) a dead/folkoloric language as many would want.

   Naturally, Catalan is the language of Catalonia.
   Spanish/Castillian, is the language of Castillian Spain.
   It is just common sense.
   And if bilingualism is so good, the only way to make sure monolingual Spanish speakers learn Catalan in Catalonia is with the current system.
3. 

   Comment by admin on 23 December 2008:

   Thanks for your comments Rab although I’d like to know what this blog has not understood? Surely there can co exist two opinions or more on a certain subject? As you are adept in the use of Spanish phrases here’s a couple that might catch your eye:

   “No hay peor ciego que el que ve lo que no es”

   “En el mundo de los ciegos, el tuerto es el rey”

   http://www.lifeincatalonia.com/corbacho-says-that-imposing-the-catalan-language-on-immigrants-is-counterproductive/
4. 

   Comment by Tazgo on 23 December 2008:

   “Spanish has 2-3 hours a week, and that’s enough since there is not a single pupil who leaves school in Catalonia without being fluent in Spanish.”

   Have any proof of that mr Rab or just making it up to reinforce your anti-Castellano values? Oddly enough, I know a 19 year old and a 17 year old who I would say are not fluent in Spanish. I guess you prefer not to let reality affect your arguments.

   PS: Ajuntament / TV3 etc. sponsored surveys are not impartial.
5. 

   Comment by Rab on 24 December 2008:

   @Admin: What do the comments from Corbacho prove? That a Spanish government official is against official, equal status between Catalan and Spanish? Tell us something we don’t know!

   Someone has to explain to me how Catalan being imposed (Whatever that means…) is a bad thing but it is ok to impose Spanish…

   @Tazgo: a subtle but ultimately spurious inference in your anecdote-based (if at all true) post. I do not have any anti-Castellano values whatsover: Castellano is my mother tongue and I am perfectly fluent in it so your accusation is a lot of nonsense. I am teaching Spanish to my Scottish wife. Is that the best argument you can offer.. and ad hominem, baseless and false accusation?

   By the way, how do come up with the answer of which surveys are impartial and which ones are not? So TV3 is not impartial but probably TVE or Tele5 are? Give us a break!

   The PISA study, which I think has the potential to be quite impartial, is quite clear, yet Catalonophobes keep hammering the same point over and over again, despite evidence that reality is not as they describe it. As Ramoneda wrote in El País, not someone likely to be accused of being a Catalan nationalist, a monolingual Spanish speaker can live in Catalonia without too much trouble (ie. my own dad, or the hundreds of thousands of monolingual Spanish speakers), but a monolingual Catalan speaker would not be able to do so so easily, particularly in Barcelona, where there are substantial pockets of monolingual Spanish speakers. It is this asymmetry that we need to address –unless one wants the asymmetry to continue and develop in social divisions of course…

   The truth of the matter is that the current system is the best framework we have to ensure that school leavers are bilingual in both languages. And even then, we all know that every year there are more, many more school leavers whose command of Catalan is not as good as their command of Spanish, particularly if they live in a monolingual Spanish environment outside the school. Why do some people want to deny these children the right and opportunity to be fluent in Catalan? Why do some of you keep pursuing the ghettoisation of Catalonia and splitting children into different communities? (In Scotland, in a different context, the separation of children in schools has had a hugely detrimental effect in society). And anyway, if Spanish was so much in danger, if this was such a big problem, surely a party like Ciudadanos would get more than their current 5% of the vote?

   Anyway, back in the real world…the Ministerio de Educación has a unit tasked with evaluating schools and colleges.

   http://www.institutodeevaluacion.mec.es
   (By the way, this website is not available in Catalan, only Spanish and English, why the failure to provide the website in Catalan if bilingualism is so good?)

   According to this department of the MdE , and to most common sense people in Catalonia, and I dare say the vast, overwhelming majority of parents in Catalonia, Catalan students display equal fluency in Spanish as students of other areas of Spain. Moreover, some students from mono-lingual CC.AA show lower levels of attainment in Spanish than Catalan students.
   Now someone explain to me why all the bile against the Catalan system and nobody questions why there are some CC.AA whose students are worse at Spanish than Catalan students.

   I am trying to find the original report that appeared in the press in 2006 (last time this study was done) but the website is not very user-friendly or properly indexed. In the meantime, I leave you with two links:
   http://www.mafius.com/foro/ftopic1565.html
   http://www.institutodeevaluacion.mec.es/contenidos/nacional/evalprim99.pdf

   Enjoy.
6. 

   Comment by Rab on 24 December 2008:

   Ah, found it!

   http://www.institutodeevaluacion.mec.es/contenidos/nacional/evaprimaria2003.pdf

   Merry Christmas everyone!
7. 

   Comment by Tazgo on 5 January 2009:

   Mr Rab, I laugh at your ranting and irrelevant impositions. A diversion technique? Hasnt worked. Sorry. So let me state clearly here that you have failed in proving your ridiculous claim:

   “there is not a single pupil who leaves school in Catalonia without being fluent in Spanish”

   What we have here is a failure from you Mr Rab. You are a naughty boy, making things up just to coerce people into sympathy and support. Be ashamed of yourself.
8. 

   Comment by Rab on 5 January 2009:

   Tazgo,

   Have you read the reports?

   Answer this simple question if you can:

   In your subjective opinion, what is the biggest number: the % of school-leavers who are not fluent in Catalan or who are not fluent in Spanish?

   The problem that you have, apart from having no arguments, is that I have provided a document from the Spanish government that says that Catalan students are as good in Spanish language as students from other areas of Spain. On the other hand, you have proved and added nothing whatsoever to the debate, other than pointless sneering. Well done.

   Can you explain why and how students from some mono-lingual areas of Spain have a lower level of attainment in Spanish language than students from Catalonia? Should not this be cause for concern?
9. 

   Comment by Tazgo on 6 January 2009:

   Mr Rab

   Yes I had a look. Nowhere did I read “there is not a single pupil who leaves school in Catalonia without being fluent in Spanish” or anything remotely similar. I dont know why you are asking me all these strange questions. I happen to be fairly happy with the majority of linguistic policies in Catalonia (more english required though). But that doesnt change the fact that your statement is fallacious. As for the “debate” here, you may think you are in a debate, but all I see is people making stupid and false statements. You included.
10. 

    Comment by Rab on 6 January 2009:

    Tazgo: The main stupid statement is yours when you write, without proof or base, that I have anti-Castellano values, which is a lot of bullshit. Then you clumsily try to pre-empt any counter-arguments stating that some sources, according to some criteria of yours Ajuntament or TV3, are not impartial. I provide a report from the MdE, hopefully an “impartial” observer in most people’s view. You realise you don’t have an argument and rant without purpose or motive. Well done.
11. 

    Comment by Tazgo on 7 January 2009:

    ooh dear Rab. Do calm down before you explode. I have looked at your blog and in my opinion, you do have anti-Spanish values. They come through fairly clear, at least to me. That is my proof or base as you put it. It is an opinion of mine and I have a right to voice it.

    However you state in a matter of factly sort of way that “there is not a single pupil who leaves school in Catalonia without being fluent in Spanish”. That is also “a lot of bullshit” as you would say. You havent proven it because you cannot. You appear to lie with a purpose or motive. well done.
12. 

    Comment by Rab on 7 January 2009:

    Tazgo,

    You have the right to talk shite about my blog, no problem with that.

    But try to get this in your head: I, and the overwhelming majority of people in Catalonia I know, still have to meet a school-leaver who is not fluent in Spanish. However, we all know of school-leavers who are not fluent in Catalan. That is the state of affairs of languages in Catalonia. The present system is the only one that gives all pupils a chance to be bilingual, by using Catalan as the vehicular language. This is what the EU report says, and what the vast majority of parents in Catalonia want, given that there is overwhelming support for the current system in the Catalan Parliament, with only one party, Ciudadanos, about 4% of the vote, overtly using this issue as their main policy driver. Even the Spanish nationalists of the PP send out mixed messages on this topic.

    If there was a problem with pupils not being fluent in Spanish, we all know that the [Spanish] nationalist media would find them and report on it. But they don’t. Because there ain’t.
13. 

    Comment by Tazgo on 8 January 2009:

    You assert (but with no proof!) that my anecdotal quote lack truth. You then fire an anecdote off. Yeah whatever.

    You say:
    “we all know of school-leavers who are not fluent in Catalan”. “The present system is the only one that gives all pupils a chance to be bilingual, by using Catalan as the vehicular language”

    So catalan is the vehicular language (usually > 80% of state school classes are in catalan) yet you and your pals know of many school leavers who cant speak it. That just does not make sense at all does it? Your argument here gives much more credence to my anecdote than yours. How odd!
14. 

    Comment by Rab on 8 January 2009:

    The problem with your anecdote is that defies everyday experience and seems ready-made. The truth of the matter is that for every pupil that is not fluent in Spanish (I have not met any yet, neither have the Spanish media apparently, otherwise it would be frontpage news, don’t you think?), there are hundreds, if not thousands, of pupils who struggle with Catalan.

    The fact that the official vehicular language is/should be Catalan, does not mean that in reality classes are done in Catalan. We all know of schools that do not comply, for whatever reason. If you bothered to speak to young people, maybe you would find out. Of course some students are not fluent in Catalan, despite the (supposed) use of Catalan as the vehicular language: if they live in a monolingual Spanish-language environment in a suburb in Barcelona where the vast majority of the population is first or second generation immigrant, and not bilingual, then they will not be able to interact in Catalan outside school. That’s precisely why the use of Catalan as the vehicular language in education is crucial. It achieves two purposes: to ensure that Catalan language does not die out, (surely we are not pursuing the obliteration of Catalan language, are we?), bjut equally importantly it also gives everyone the best chance to be truly bilingual.

    I remember when I was little and before the private TV channels (T5, A3 and C+) came on. At that time, there were 4 TV channels, 2 in Spanish and 2 in Catalan. Even my father, who after 40 years in Catalonia still does not speak Catalan, would make an attempt to watch TV3. Now, 20 years later, there are still 2-4 channels in Catalan but over 5-7 in Spanish. In Flanders, or Quebec for example, this is not the case, but that’s another issue altogether.…
15. 

    Comment by Tazgo on 9 January 2009:

    Mr Rab. I live in Catalonia. You dont. I have spoken to quite a few recent catalan school leavers. Don’t know wether or how you have. I know of some who are not fluent in Spanish and you dont (did you actually take the time to find out?). Because of this and your limited viewpoint, you state:

    “there is not a single pupil who leaves school in Catalonia without being fluent in Spanish”

    I have asked you several times to prove this. You still havent. Care to be a man and admit you could be wrong or have lied?

    A revelation has just come to me. I realize that I maybe wrong! About you being anti-Spanish that is. If so, I apologize. Profusely. But I also realize the probable root cause of why I got that impression: Your last paragraph tells me why, along with a lot of other stuff. If you had experienced even a small amount of day to day living in Catalonia, you would know that there are now far more than “2-4 channels in Catalan but over 5-7 in Spanish” (also revealing in the use of words, but thats a different story). I’m not sure how many in total I get, but on a tv near Barcelona the first 10 or so channels are mainly in Catalan, with a smilar amount also in Spanish (cant be bothered to check exact figures: I dont like TV much). There’s even a channel that is predominently in English I think, so maybe you should also count that one as “against” Catalan aswell.

    If you did actually know much about Catalonia today, you wouldnt be stating yet another obvious untruth to back yourself up. You really aren’t helping things when you continually state as fact things that may have been true many years ago, but are not true today. Catalonia has clearly changed from the time when you took your snapshot and formed your opinion.
16. 

    Comment by Rab on 9 January 2009:

    Tazgo, you are being a bit flexible with the truth. Local TV channels with no budget and which show porn movies at night (like the one in Sabadell), don’t really count, do they?

    In Spanish: TVE, La2 (some local output in Catalan), T5, A3TV, Cuatro, La Sexta, C+
    In Catalan (mostly but not always): TV3, El K3/33, 3/24, BTV (Canal 300: old soaps).

    Local channels with little budget and mostly amateur staff:
    In Catalan (most of the time): 8TV, Canal Català,
    In Spanish: Localia
    In English: I don’t get one but I’d love to get some BBC channels like BBC2-3-4 or BBC News.

    So I stand by what I wrote: there is much more output in Spanish and in Catalan in the mainstream channels (5-7 mainstream channels vs 2-4 (note I count BTV, even though it is a local channel as most of the work is done by salaried staff these days…).

    Of course if we take the smaller local, amateur channels then there are more channels in Catalan but they are the equivalent of hospital radio.

    Rab’s secret: in a previous life, I studied “Imatge i So” and worked for a few of the channels mentioned above, or in their predecessors.

    I still have property in Catalonia, visit whenever I can, and I am in contact with my parents, relatives and friends: don’t patronise me, thanks.

    As for your assertion that you have met pupils who are not fluent in Spanish, I very much doubt it. If this was a pervasive problem, TeleMadrid and El Mundo would love it. For a start, it would be against the sacred Spanish Constitution. However, we do know of significant numbers of pupils in the Barcelona area who are not fluent in Catalan, yet this is not deemed to be a problem. I wonder why…

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