Catalan kids don’t know their Spanish geography!
I was sort of horrified to learn this morning whilst my 10 year old daughter was going over her homework in Catalan that Catalonia’s primary school children know virtually nothing about the rest of Spain regarding geography.
My wife happened to ask her if she knew any of the names of Spain’s river and she drew a blank. I think this is quite a sad situation coupled with the fact that Catalan kids only do about an hour or two of Spanish language a week! Pretty useless if you ask me especially if the children’s parents only speak Catalan at home.
The times I’ve had Catalan children speak to me in Spanish (Castellano) and then have to revert to Catalan because their Spanish is under par is quite distressing.
I’m glad to say that my two children, although taught at Catalan schools, speak perfect Spanish (Castellano). Why? Quite simple really – we ban Catalan from being spoken at home! The children don’t mind as they’ve probably had enough of it at school!
Before you call me General Franco for banning Catalan at home you should consider the great favour I’m doing them for when they reach secondary school. I think I’m giving them a head start in secondary school life. Anyone agree with me on this? Do other autonomous regions in Spain have these problems?
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Comment by Troy on 12 October 2008:
As there really is no national education policy, I think all regions suffer from this extreme regionalism to a certain extent, though surely not to the extent as you do in Catalonia and those in the Basque country.
Even out here in Extremadura the children are force fed the pap of regionalism under the guise of Primary education needing to be “close to the children.” They thus learn about local villages ahead of the whereabouts of Madrid or Barcelona, which only exist as football teams to them until much later in life.
If you are going to make your life in Catalonia, it would serve the children well to speak Catalan, but if you plan on moving abroad or outside the region, speaking Catalan would be on par with speaking Lao, and of course Spanish would be more beneficial to them.
I’m all for learning, whatever it may be, but it is a shame when it has to be at the expense of something else.
Comment by Tom on 29 October 2008:
Hmm… I think ‘banning’ any language at home is a bit odd, personally. My wife didn’t speak any Spanish up until when she was four or five but she speaks it just as well as Catalan now. She got most of it from books, TV and friends whose parents don’t speak it at home (as well as her mother’s side of the family, who are from Ciudad Real).
If and when we have kids, they’ll speak Catalan and English at home. Not because of a language ban but because we know that their Spanish will be just fine.
By the way: do you speak any Catalan?
Comment by admin on 29 October 2008:
Banning is I suppose my way of saying “not used” I guess I’m one of those people who hate Catalan being shoved down their throats that’s all. Put it down to bad experiences in this region.
I do indeed speak Catalan and my children speak English Spanish Catalan and my 11 year old daughter has been going to Chinese language lessons for two years now and is in a class full of Chinese kids and their teacher speaks to them only in Chinese!
I’d much rather her speak Chinese than Catalan as it’s much more useful.Just take a drive outside Catalonia and the language becomes useless in my opinion.
Comment by Tom on 1 November 2008:
Well, it depends where you drive doesn’t it? For example, if you drive north into France, Provence, for example, you’ll find that more people speak Catalan or a related language than Chinese. Drive south to Castelló and Valencia and you’ll find that lots of people speak Catalan but few will respond in Mandarin. Similarly, in Mallorca, Menorca, Ibiza and even parts of Sardinia, Catalan is widely spoken and chosen in favour over Chinese.
As to hating having Catalan “shoved down your throat”, I’ve lived here for years and I’ve never witnessed this. Indeed, I’m always faintly suspicious when people allege it because in conversations with my friends and colleagues, I’ve established that the only people who ever claim that such pressure has been exerted are those who see no point in learning Catalan, hate the sound of it or had a bad experience once with someone who spoke it.
If you’ve got time and don’t mind, I’d be interested to know what happened to turn you against Catalan. My skills aren’t great but I’m enjoying the process of improving my abilities, and it makes it easier to speak to my in-laws as well.
Comment by admin on 1 November 2008:
yawn….it’s getting a bit boring isn’t it especially when it’s taken out of context. What’s the deal about going to Castellón and not finding people who speak Mandarin???????? Come again!
I wonder how many years you’ve lived here? Obviously not that many and certainly not as many as me. As you’ve already established that I do indeed speak a bit of Catalán – I don’t get your point with
“I’ve established that the only people who ever claim that such pressure has been exerted are those who see no point in learning Catalan, hate the sound of it or had a bad experience once with someone who spoke it”.
With your last sentence I think I know where this is going – you’re obviously married to a Catalán girl and feel like you have to stick up for her language and culture. I’m glad to see you are getting on well with the language and wish you all the success in the world. It may be a different story if you’d had similar experiences as mine.
To end I’ll just paraphrase what an English writer wrote in La Vanguardia a few years back when he said “The Catalans are using the same tactics that General Franco used when he banned the Catalán language but the other way round”
Comment by Anna Sevillé on 1 November 2008:
I´ve been reading your fantastic comments about the catalan language.Let´s be realistic , catalan is needed in Catalonia only because in the past 12 years the catalan gevermment has imposed it in order for anyone to get any oficial jobs, I mean funcionarios.It´s a real shame not to be recognised for your hard work within this community unless you can provide a B, C or D catalan certificate for working. My dear friends catalans , galegos ,basque or any minor language could only show their power by opressing citizens’ freedom obstructing their opportunities of getting a better job unless they provide those level certificates.I´ve lived in Barcelona nearly all my life I´ve got a University degree in Catalonia before 1992 and I´m not entitled to any official job unless I take any of those levels because this goverment doesn´t recognise the level of catalan for anyone who dedicated their time and effort before that year.
In the nazi concentration camps the prisioners had to have a number printed on their skin – for being considered a genuine catalan you need to provide your catalan certificate in order to work. Could anyone tell me where are the differences?
Comment by Tom on 2 November 2008:
@Admin – basically, my point is that I’ve never had Catalan “rammed down my throat” and nor has anyone else I know here. I think you’d do more to support your argument by explaining when this has happened to you (besides, it would be genuinely interesting to hear your experiences rather than just carry on bickering about Catalan!). I’m not sure that the number of years I’ve lived here is relevant (yes, I’m younger than you, does this mean I should acquiesce in all debates?!).
@Anna – “In the nazi concentration camps the prisioners had to have a number printed on their skin – for being considered a genuine catalan you need to provide your catalan certificate in order to work. Could anyone tell me where are the differences?” yes, the differences are simple: (1) the first case involves the forced tattooing of prisoners in a concentration camp, whereas the second situation you described concerns the system employed by the Generalitat de Catalunya to ensure that public servants are capable of serving citizens who speak Catalan.
Frankly, your comparison of the language laws here and the suffering of concentration camp victims is completely revolting. I suppose you’ve never met anyone who survived the camps, or anyone who knew survivors, but all the same, you should try to find out more about that subject.
As to being “entitled” to a job: no one’s entitled to any job, especially in the civil service! If you want the job, you have to meet that job’s requirements.
Comment by admin on 2 November 2008:
It looks like there’s someone that agrees with me Tom! I’m going to give you a few examples that I’m sure you’d like:
On one occasion I went to El Corte Inglés to buy some shirts on my recent arrival and had to listen to the assistant – a man explain me everything in Catalán when he knew full well I was English and only spoke a few words of Spanish.
On another occasion I had to experience the joy of going to the Ayuntamiento and finding out about epígrafes as I wanted to start a business. The guy in front was from Madrid and the kind Catalan lady duly changed tack to attend him in his NATIVE language Spanish. All well and jolly until it’s my turn. The kind Catalan lady suddenly turned into the wicked witch of the east and spoke to me in Catalan KNOWING FULL WELL TOM that I was English and had not mastered their poetic language – only knowing reasonable Spanish. When I challenged her and said that she was ok dealing with the guy in front of me in Spanish she then proceeded to make my life as difficult as possible in half Spanish and half Catalan. Does she meet your requirements Tom for being a civil servant as you kindly pointed out to Anna? Maybe in your opinion she’s entitled to that job!
I’ll end with my favourite that you’ll love:
I wanted to study some graphic design programs in Barcelona and went to La Escola Tau. Anyway I enrolled in some Photoshop classes and the teacher asked if we all spoke Catalan – around 5 of put our hands up and said we were either foreigners or from Navarra or Seville. Well, my teacher “lo pasó por el forro! He carried on merrily speaking his Catalán completely forgetting his students that didn’t. Break time came and he cornered me and asked where I was from. I said London and he proceeded with an onslaught of why and how he ate very badly there a few years back. I was tempted to call him a fat bastard as he only looked interested in food anyway – a kind of Jabba The Hut character. He was about 6 feet two and weighed about 18 stone and grossly overweight. Instead I limited myself to ask him if it were at all possible to give some explanations in Spanish as it was really difficult to understand in Catalan and I’d never been in front of a Macintosh to boot. He took me aside and said ” Do you know what? It won’t hurt you one little bit to listen to my Photoshop course in Catalan”. Maybe another one who has earned his right Tom.
Thus I leave you with just 3 fine examples Tom to get you going – I hope you don’t think I’m making you acquiesce in any way. Oh and by the way Anna’s comparison with about Nazi concentration camps hit the nail on the head for me even though revolting! Cheers.
Comment by Erik Jeffery on 16 November 2008:
Having been following the comments following the largely inaccurate article in the Economist dated 6th of November(and also making a few contributions myself) I pick up on your endorsement and also followed your link. I could not agree less with what I understand to be your view and indeed my own experience having been here for nearly seven years is directly contrary to yours. I am fed up with shop keepers, administrators, bureaucrats (mainly from national bodies)etc. replying to me in Spanish; it happens all the time. Either they don’t speak Catalan or they think that because I am English, I don’t speak it. I always open a conversation in Catalan and only if it’s evident the the other party has no knowledge of the language would I change. It has never happened to me the other way round, never!! Whatever your views to the rights or wrongs of the structure here, it is the case that the infrastructure here is in Catalan, so if you want to be part of the government infrastructure, you have to have Level C. That seems entirely reasonable to me. I am involved in the life of my village here and attend many political activities including presiding over and attending meetings of various commissions under the category of Partipació (Agenda 21). My studies at level C have obviously assisted me in my understanding of such matters.
It is unfortunate that the Catalan administration does not sell itself well enough to the rest of the world with regard to its own nationality. Let us look forward to a Catalunya within the European Union, independent and free from the ties from Madrid.
Visca Catalunya!
Salutacions
Erik Jeffery
Comment by David on 17 November 2008:
I think Erik must live in a plastic bubble or even another planet. I find it hard to believe that he has trouble conversing in Catalan with shopkeepers and administrators! Visca Catalunya? So when did you sell out, Erik? Catalunya will never become part of the EU btw as it’s a region that is inside Spain which in turn IS in the EU – just thought I’d clear that up for you mate.
Comment by Ian Llorens on 18 November 2008:
I did my part.
Wa are trilingual at home, including Mandarin and English. It all depends on the IQ of the family. Carod-Rovira’s family has strictly forbidden anything but the dialect of Alt Camp. Maybe yours requires restrictions.
Comment by Ian Llorens on 18 November 2008:
Amma,
I just visited the Holocaust museum at Jerusalem. You should visit it to understand what nazis did and realize that you are making a fool of yourself and of your country.
Based on your statement, I can only say that you are a MORON.
Comment by Ian Llorens on 18 November 2008:
It’s too dark here, I meant Anna.
Comment by Tom C. on 20 November 2008:
I study up on my Catalan when I visit my inlaws in Banyoles and I’m always eager to practice on shopkeepers. You would be surprised to find how often I come across people who don’t speak the language. Even right in the neighborhood market and bars.
I’m a little confused, did Hitler force 6 million Jews to learn German?
Comment by Jeff H on 20 November 2008:
I’m surprised at Tom’s IQ as it must be of a chip! Maybe I think Hitler shipped them over from Jerusalem first Tom then forced them to learn German.WTF!!!
Comment by Jeff H on 20 November 2008:
Btw Ian it wasn’t just Jews that Hitler wanted exterminated. There were lots of minority groups that he had just as much hatred for. For example you don’t often hear about the 1 million Jehovah’s Witnesses that he wanted to exterminate, do you? Not just Jews mate.
Comment by Tom C. on 22 November 2008:
WTF indeed. You missed the irony.
Comment by Magics, J on 24 November 2008:
Jeff H: you make little sense but it’s important to remember that the Jewish people bore the brunt of Hitler’s insane hatred. It was the Jewish people who were constantly vilified, and who were the subject of numerous false accusations in Nazi Germany. Worth noting too that the Spanish fascists used a lot of anti-Semitic rhetoric and propaganda as they tried to crush the 2nd Republic. Looks to me like Ana’s little more than an unreformed Francoist.
Comment by Jeff H on 27 November 2008:
Magic Johnson: It’s also important to remember the “other” people too just as it’s also important to remember just who gave that scumbag Hitler his power in the first place – The Catholic Church. If it were not for them it would have been a different story altogether.
Good Reading: The Catholic Church and Nazi Germany – Guenter Lewy
Comment by Jeff H on 2 December 2008:
A joke for Tom in case he still thinks people with level C are worth it. Hope you uderstand Spanish btw.
**Dos amigos que se encuentran… * *
- Hombre Luis, ¿qué es de tu vida?* *
- Pues mira, me he colocado de funcionario.* *
- ¡Que bien!, así por las tardes no trabajas.* *
- No. Por las tardes no voy. Cuando no trabajo es por las mañanas.
Comment by Christian on 2 December 2008:
I have the feeling of being a (Catalan) pig while my hangmen talk about how to kill me. And I use the expression “pig” with all my intention, it was the Nazis who talk about the Jewish pigs, and I am sorry to tell you that I have the same feeling.
We are a little country fighting for the survival of our culture and language, and it make me feel sad to read your blog… My language and culture is a nuisance for you, and I am sure you are one of those who say “yo soy un ciudadano del mundo” or maybe your pro-Tibet because this a cool cause…
I recommend you this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcbc-EA6O5s
I hope it’s not to late to learn about us, I hope it’s not to late to know where this hate comes from.
Comment by Steve on 2 December 2008:
Hey, I’m sorry you feel like that. there are a few admins on this site who sometimes get a bit “carried away” due to unpleasant experiences I guess. Not everyone here agrees with some of the radical stuff that’s written. don’t get offended Christian.
Steve
Comment by Jason Bourne on 3 January 2009:
Just returned from a visit to Barcelona and was idly googling ‘catalan’ related articles to learn more when I came upon this thread. I will say that I was surprised to hear the experiences of the English speakers responding. I generally found the catalans happy to speak in English, much more so than in Spanish. (After a couple of days, I pretty much stopped trying my castellano). Additionally, people seemed to positively beam if you bothered to learn a few phrases in catala. Overall, I think they share the same concerns as the Quebecois in Canada – they don’t want their customs to die out.
Additionally, it would seem they have greater reason to have those concerns – french has ~180 Million speakers to catalan’s ~7 M, quebec has existed for a far shorter time than catalunya, and Canada gives Quebec loads of funding, subsidies, concessions and other preferential treatment not provided to the other provinces. In spain, I think the Basque country may get that treatment, but i do not believe catalunya does.
Probably easy for me to say from down under, but in Europe, being a polyglot is almost a necessity – you are better off encouraging your children to learn multiple languages. While you might argue that mandarin will be more useful to your children – frankly I’d rather my children were in places that spoke catalan (just one example) over a place that required knowledge of mandarin, etc.
Comment by Leonard G on 21 January 2009:
Im spanish and catalan
The catalan nationalism matter its about nothing but money. Catalonia is the region that produces more money in Spain. But Barcelona still can’t compete against Madrid due to the centralist policy of the spanish government. it is a fact that if it wasnt because of that traditional policy and Franco,’s and Primo the Rivera’s dictatures, Barcelona would be today a first class city. Not all “Barceloneses” and “Madrileños ” hate each other, some are opened minded and have realized that Barcelona and Madrid are the same concept towards the world eyes.
The reason you are sometimes not answered in the language you want to , in Madrid may be because some, think they are the center of the world and in Catalonia may be because some are angry towards colsed minded people.
talking about language, if some of you have children my advice is to teach them as many languages as they can learn, but also if they are going to grow here in catalonia try to assume catalan as a mother tongue because It’s been proved that having two mothertongs permits the kids learn other languages easely, understand other latin languages such as french or italian and deveelop their social abilities as well.
If they finally become half catalans half English/American/Australian/Newzelander/Irish it will mean they perfectly know english, spanish , catalan, and will be able to understand not mandarin but italian, French and so.
Comment by Leonard G on 21 January 2009:
by the way, excuse my english please
Comment by Michael on 9 February 2009:
I’m a native English speaker and I moved to Barcelona a year and a half ago. I made the wise decision early on of enrolling in a Catalan course rather than taking the seemingly easy route of Catalan bashing as so many expats seem to do. I say “seemingly” because in the long run living in Catalonia is easier if you speak Catalan. Simply because people appreciate your efforts and open up more.
Yes, I think it’s childish and unfortunate how some Catalans categorically reject everything Spanish. Civil servants in government bodies such as health care and the educational system sometimes seem to be living in la la land. I don’t appreciate the fact that you get the feeling all forms of civic activism, protecting the environment, assisting the elderly, etc… are restricted to Catalan speakers. There was a recent complaint in the press that a government website with information for women suffering domestic violence was only in Catalan, even though a large percentage of women needing this service are Spanish speaking immigrants. Ridiculous.
But if you interpret these things in a historical perspective, get to know some Catalans who also share these critical views of there own society, and invest your intellectual energy in ‘playing along’ rather than questioning the usefulness of Catalan, it’s a great place to live. The first year of Catalan classes are free. Plus you have STar Trek, Magnum PI, and Bonanza dubbed in Catalan every day on public TV. They’ve gone to great lengths to reach out to my culture, so the least I can do is meet them half way.
And regardless of whatever is taught in primary school here, Catalan and Spanish are practically two versions of the same language, linguistically speaking. Expanding your Catalan vocab expands your Spanish vocab.
“A language is a dialect with an army and navy.”
Comment by europeano on 15 February 2009:
I’m generally against banning thus I would not agree with you in that one. I guess that the main language at your home is Spanish, probably by far the most spoken (viva-voice, tv, radio,…) even before the ban. why to impose explicitly any restrictions then?
And about those Catalan that do not speak Spanish properly I’d say it is because they do not do it often yet they can improve quite fast if they’re put in a context they need to use more frequently, an of course, they want to.
I’m catalan and bilingual. I’ve been living abroad for about 8 years now, mostly in English speaking countries, and when I come back now neither my spanish nor catalan sounds that great… but I know I would get it back if I returned for good. My point is that you’re mistaken in thinking that “pure”-catalan kids are just permanently disable to speak proper Spanish. As a matter of fact I think you could get to speak perfect catalan if you wanted to (I’m assuming that your catalan is the same as my extremadura parents, sorry If I’m wrong).
Nonetheless I have to say that I don’t agree with the educational language policies implemented currently in Catalunya myself; well as far as I know them from news and opinion articles. In that I would suggest that you concentrate in making sure your kids get the Spanish orthography right and some literature. Other things like grammar are quite similar they are not missing much.
I said “make sure” because, in fact, it could well be that they are taught them well, don’t judge too soon; there is also plenty of people in the rest of Spain with bad Spanish ortography. If a catalan makes a mistake is a bit to easy to point to the fact that he-she is Catalan as the cause when the are many other possible reasons. For example I never was good in ortho myself even though I was taught in a private school, all subjects in Spanish except catalan. I was very good at maths though!
Comment by Mathew on 23 February 2009:
Catalan kids who don’t know their Spanish geography in all probability won’t know their Catalan or European geography either.
According to the last PISA report, Catalonia scores the same in Spanish and Catalan language achievement: rather mediocre, but equally mediocre in all subjects. The problem is not exclusively a Catalan problem, more one of many educational systems in Europe which don’t work.
As for English people, or those of other nationalities, complaining about Nivell C, I just don’t understand – Catalan is a Romance language with a wealth of resources that make it easy to learn. I have my Nivell C and it wasn’t a torture or a problem. You just stop complaining and study, the same as passing a driving test or doing First Aid. As an English ex-pat myself, I wish other Brits would stop whingeing and get on with it. You go to another country, you learn another language, or languages. It’s no big deal.
Comment by administrator on 25 February 2009:
Looks like you are all taking the “banning Catalan” remark too much to heart. I don’t know what kind of crap you guys are digging up about Catalan kids do know their stuff etc etc but I suggest you go to a few schools instead of being “armchair observers”. For crying out loud, one of you lives in Scotland! I am actually speaking first hand and I don’t need biased material to show me otherwise.
I used to teach Catalan kids and some of them have great difficulty in using Spanish, preferring to use Catalan instead of Castellano to talk to me. You guys just don’t get it – you’re so blinkered into thinking that Catalonia should be a nation and that we should all speak Catalan that you forget where Catalonia is – in Spain!
As I have said before, my kids speak English, Castellano and Catalan and one of them studies Chinese (still much more useful I’m afraid). It’s a shame that my observations have been taken out of context.
I’m pleased for you Matthew having your Nivell C now you can get a job that pays you 1000 Euros – good luck. You will even have a better chance of getting that job than someone called José García Díaz for example with the same certificate. Don’t believe me? Ask around. Catalans seem to favour anything with a foreign tinge to it rather than an Andalucian tinge. How long have you been here in Catalonia Matthew? And the big question is – where did you take your Nivell C certificate?
Once you’ve been here for at least ten years do write back and tell me what you think of the education system and whether Catalan as a language has “done you proud”.
Comment by Mathew on 26 February 2009:
As it happens I currently work teaching in Tarragona, to children from 3rd of primary to 3rd of ESO. Concerning the linguistic question, it so happens that I work in the neighbourhood of Torreforta, in the west of Tarragona city, and as a non-armchair observer I can confirm that a lot of the kids don’t have much command of Catalan, this being a largely Andaluz and Castellano neighbourhood. But beyond anybody’s anecdotal experience, there are the PISA reports, which show that the educational attainment in Spanish and Catalan of secondary school leavers is the same. PISA is conducted by European educationalists, not by member state authorities, and it’s findings are reasonably reliable(as reliable as any statistics ever can be). You may have found some kids who don’t dominate Spanish, but according to all the non-anecdotal evidence(PISA, Consell d’Avaluació), Catalan children manage the two languages equally badly.
As for Nivell C, thanks for being so positive about the value of education!! Having a driving licence or a degree in physics doesn’t guarantee much more than 1000 Euros a month these days either, but that doesn’t devalue these studies or achievements as valuable in themselves.
I haven’t found any evidence about the comparative value of Nivell C for Spanish people or foreigners, but I would insist: I have Nivell C because I live here. If I lived in Berlin I would study the equivalent exam in German, or the Korean exam in Korea. Regardless of potential job opportunities: simply because as a foreigner with sufficient economic resources and time to do so, I think it’s the most normal thing in the world, in the same way that it would be normal for a Catalan living in Liverpool to study English.
Comment by Wendy on 9 March 2009:
Hello,
Well I think I learned more then I could have imagined from reading the previous posts. I was just curious to find out what people and children were speaking in the public schools because my daughter, who is American, is applying for a grant to help teach English in the public schools and has chosen as first choice the region of Catalonia. She knows Spanish and studied in Madrid at one time. She’s not at all concerned. I just want to know that no matter where she ends up living and teaching in Catalonia she will be able to practice and improve her Spanish first and foremost. BTW, she’s more then willing to learn Catalon.
Comment by recetas de cocina on 12 March 2009:
I don’t know what you’ve learnt from the previous posts but if I were your daughter I’d head to a more friendly region such as Andalusia.There are many problems here regarding the Catalan language as the “new Catalans” want to beat it into you.
All schools in Catalonia have ALL lessons in Catalan and treat Spanish as a second language with 1 or 2 hours Max a week – and then they complain that the kids don’t know Spanish properly! The original old Catalan people are so nice and genuine but it’s these new radical Catalans that get on my nerves. Most of them are from Andalucian immigrants so they are not that Catalan anyway.
They’ve even taken away the check box on the school enrolement forms which said “Castellano” – which is totally against what the government says, too. Good luck.
Comment by Javi on 14 March 2009:
Hi people:
Since Matthew is so keen to mention the last PISA report I want to quote it too. The results are (or seem to be) independent on the language issue, but what is significant from the PISA report is the results for Maths and Sciences in general: Catalunya is down the bottom together with Andalucia. However the northern regions (La Rioja, Castilla y Leon and Navarra) are well above the average in the EU…Food for thought?
Comment by angela bicho on 20 March 2009:
My mother was born and raised in Barcelona although she hasn’t lived there for years she proudly taught me Catalan from the time I was a baby .I will proudly teach it to my children.
Comment by admin on 20 March 2009:
@ Angela – that’s very noble of you Angela, just be sure to teach them Spanish, too.
Comment by admin on 21 March 2009:
How’s the weather in Glasgow at the moment? ..lol
Comment by admin on 23 March 2009:
Oh forgot to say…Rab?? I’ve informed Virgin.Net of your little mischievous Whois prank Rab in Glasgow – so be a good little boy and run along now, there there.
Comment by Mireia on 23 April 2009:
I grow up in Barcelona. My mother was from Alicante and my father from Barcelona. At home we always spoke Spanish (castellano) and it was only with my grandad that we would speack Catalan. Yes school was in Catalan appart from Spanish lessons. From my siblings, I’m the only one that chosed to talk Catalan with friends. I don’t see nothing wrong with growing up billingual. And I don’t think banning a language should be allowed, not even at home. I’m now leaving in Glasgow and I have a child who I try to teach Spanish and Catalan: should I ban English at home because he will have enough at school? No, I won’t.
Comment by admin on 23 April 2009:
Será “I grew up in Barcelona” “speak Catalan” “apart from” “chose to” “I don’t see anything wrong” “living in Glasgow” “should I ban English at home because he will have enough at school?” “??”.
First of all, I think you are taking it too much to heart. When the word “banned at home” was used it was quite innocent. It’s not actually banned at home you see but adds for interesting comments like yours Mireia. What I do think is a shame though is the insistence on relegating Spanish (Castellano) to a second or third language. After all, it’s Spain we are living in, isn’t it?
Anyway it doesn’t seem to do much good having all the schooling in Catalan as most of the kids in Barcelona seem to “pasarlo por la entrepierna” and end up speaking Spanish. Also, what is the biggest joke is that most of the schools here use non native English speakers to teach English to primary school kids. I nearly died laughing when my son came home and said “the teacher said the pronunciation of “green” was “ggrrrin”. So instead of trying to teach decent English to kids in Catalonia I suggest they try and teach decent Spanish (Castellano) for at least 4 hours a week and not 1 as finding English teachers who can actually teach the subject is obviously pretty damn hard.
Bon Sant Jordi a tots!
Comment by tymfaia on 7 May 2009:
Ah, people, how ignorant you are. Break it down to what the essence is.
For me as a Greek, Catalan is the language to be appreciated more, because of its pure constitution.
People may make mistakes in their struggle to maintain their identity, but in doing so they have survived the Spanish.
That Spanish is widely spoken in the world, is a sad proof that others did not succeed.
Comment by Mary on 13 May 2009:
Wow! I found this thread by accident and am fascinated.
I have live in the Girona area of Catalonia since 1989 and have brought up three children here, all of whom are tri-lingual. I am Scottish, my husband is English, two of my sons were born in Scotland but educated in Catalonia and the youngest was born and educated in Catalonia. I have learnt Catalan by speaking with my neighbours, other people and my own personal efforts to become fluent. I have learnt Castillian Spanish in the same way. I have an active interest in being respectful to all and sundry, regardless of race, colour,creed or indeed political opinions.
Education in this area(I speak as a parent and refer specifically to my home town)is lacking in all subjects not only languages and this is due to the lack of interest shown by teaching staff rather than any political reason. I recently had a conversation with a friend who teaches regarding didactic preparation and marking of class work at home and her reply shocked me : “I take nothing home – providing they (her pupils) reach the minimum standards I do enough during my time in school”. My sister is a head teacher in the UK and regularly works way into the wee hours in order to make sure her alumni have the best possible chance in this world. In comparison, my friends and aquaintances here spend small fortunes sending their children to private after-school classes in all subjects in order to get them thro’ the course requirements!
Regarding the Catalan/ Castellano debate — my humble opinion based on twenty years of living here is that post Franco the Catalan people wanted to restablish their history and heritage and that this is a rational and understandable reaction to the situation given so many years of repression of the language and traditions, but that although this was fairly radical in the beginning with Catalan replacing as opposed to living alongside Castellano it is calming down with the passing of time and will gradually reach a happy medium. There will always be people who are rude and bad mannered and will insist in speaking either Spanish or Catalan out of context in order to make a point, but the majority of people are willing and happy to speak either language when called upon. Bear in mind also that many older people particularly those from more rural areas do not in actual fact speak Castellano as their families always spoke Catalan at home ( in spite of Franco’s rulings), were never lucky enough to recieve formal education and many are illiterate.I hasten to add not stupid or unintelligent, merely unable to read or write…
My own children were taught in Catalan with Castillian Spanish as a subject ( yes as previously stated only a few hours weekly in school)and English at home and as a foreign language in school(even fewer hours weekly). Our “method” was quite simple – we spoke in whatever language came out between ourselves at any given moment, but always in the language of any visitors to our home out of respect for them. My sons have no problems switching from one language to another and do not make mistakes or confuse the languages.One of my sons married a girl from Valencia and as a result his children now also have Valenciano in the mix…Another married a Polish girl who speaks several languages and his daughter is being raised in a multi-lingual home (incidentally in the UK). None of my grandchildren have any problems with communication either…
All in all — surely a person should be able to use whatever their chosen language is regardless of politics but also accept the laws of the governing body and be prepared to fit in with whatever legislation is current.
Comment by steve on 15 May 2009:
Thanks Mary for your fine comments.
Comment by John Smith on 28 May 2009:
…on the subject of education…
…I noted today that the children in the school close to me were all today chanting “Madrid Cabron. Salud la Campion”…..y parando …y otros continuando unos minutos despues…y otro uno minuto despues….
And the teachers present in the playground did nothing.
This is the correct role of a teacher of Education ?
Supporting the Catalan politican animosity to Madrid and Spain (de Carod Rovira, Puigcerdos, y lo del “Morte al Borbon”….y dinero de la Generalitat to an ONG which bought 5000 whistles to blow during the playing of the national hymnn/music.
The official system is, in my view, indoctrinating these children..(and against the nation/state that they are part of, Spain)..and in 15 years time they will be the ones causing destruction in Canaletas y Ramblas.
(some part of the Madrid/Barca ‘thing’ is for financial reasons in my view. The world has great interest in a game that is a ‘battle’ between 2 enemies. If the 2 were great ‘friends’ then there would be less interest, fewer global viewers and the TV rights would be worth millions of Euros less. (and part of the ‘Catalan’ ‘thing’ is for protectionism….natural/understandable to a degree but not permitted under the European laws of open competicion and equality).
That Snr Carod Rovira appointed his brother to be the ‘ambassador’ in Paris, the many study contracts given to wifes and friends (that were just photocopies) , the ERC letters of extorsion to public system workers and the frequent awarding of contracts ‘al dado’ in Barcelona/Catalunya (and Valencia, see Snr Camps legal case) are illustrations of the real situation in Catalunya and other ‘Catalan’ speaking areas.
Comment by admin on 28 May 2009:
@John Smith: thanks for your comments – word has been changed
it does seem that teachers can’t be bothered here in Catalonia and the football Barça thing is a joke. There was however an article in one of the local rags banning the Barça kit from classes as the kids here take it too the extreme by wearing the shirts, scarves etc.
The other day my friend’s daughter came home and stated that she had to learn the capital cities of a long list of African countries just because her teacher happens to be married to an African! For God’s sake, I think the time would be better spent learning the names of the rivers in Spain or even dedicating another hour or so to the foreign language they call Castellano.
Comment by John Smith on 28 May 2009:
Someone said
“For me as a Greek, Catalan is the language to be appreciated more, because of its pure constitution.
People may make mistakes in their struggle to maintain their identity, but in doing so they have survived the Spanish.”
What do people think about the subject of shops being fined if their sign is in Spanish , with no Catalan ?
(noting Spanish is an official language and everyone is taught it at school so all locals know and understand the Spanish shop sign)
2) Should shops that have their shop sign only in English be fined ?
There are many in Barcelona. It is illegal, must include Catalan.
(note that Barcelona is tourist spot, many visitors speak English to communicate, even if not their main language, since do not speak Spanish, and definitely not Catalan, small language)
3) What should happen to shops that antique signs in Spanish ?
(there are some, in ceramics for example)
Force them to change it ?
Or make an exception for them but force every other shop to include Catalan ?
4) Some paperwork for visitors is only in Catalan and not in Spanish. What do people think about having adverts in the rest of Spain saying “Come to Catalunya for your holidays”….but then only making some paperwork only in Catalan.
(eg. your rights as a consumer when buying a product or returning a product to a shop, in some tourist towns, only printed in Catalan.
Some Barcelona museum websites are in Catalan and English with no Spanish !!)
To me it seems two faced, intencionalmente falso. Un truco/estafa pagado por dinero publico.
I am interested in any views.
Comment by Stuart on 6 June 2009:
Don’t manipulate John Smith. The reason why some shops are being fined is because they don’t have their signs in Catalan, not because they use Spanish. It’s a big difference my dear.
Having said this, I’m against fining shops. Costumers are free to buy wherever they want, and if anyone considers the lack of Catalan a big deal, you are free to buy in another place where Catalan is not ignored.
However, taking into account that most European countries have lots of laws and regulations concerning their national languages, I find pretty obvious that Catalonians make shops use Catalan, as well as Danes make their shops use Danish and Swedes make their shops use Swedish.
2) Yes, those shops where only English is used should use Catalan as well. Then both tourists and the Catalan government would be satisfied, you see? It’s not that difficult.
3) Yes, we should make an exception.
4) I’m living in Sweden, and here all the paperwork is just in Swedish. And even though I don’t speak any Swedish I don’t complain because I’m in Sweden, not in England. I would never pretend they have everything in English just for me.
Instead of acting like a British governor of the 1990s try at least to make an effort and learn the local language. You’ll be happier, I tell you. I see lots of frustrated people over here blaming Catalan for their own personal failures… Pathetic.
Comment by Olga on 14 June 2009:
Tot això és mentida. Els nens saben perfecctament parlar català i castellà!El castellà no està gens marginat!és més, si tu estàs a les hores del pati amb els nens veuràs com la majoria dels nens parlen castellà i no pasa català. Una altra cosa, quan els nens vagin creixent, veuran que molts professors donaran la lliçó en castellà i no pas en català, i no m’estic referint a la asignatura de castellà, sino a altres com tecnologia, naturals, matemàtiques, etc.
Comment by Claudia on 14 June 2009:
Catalonians have ridiculously raised their language to a “God” level “God Father Catalonian”
Comment by Stam on 19 June 2009:
Hello all,
I was born away and raised in this area and there are a few things I’d like to clarify, since I have been a part of this system, in Valencian, Castillian and Catalan.
- EVERYONE in Catalonia speaks Spanish. Catalan is a co-oficial language but people are perfectly bilingual. Statistics show a fairly higher percentage of Spanish speakers than that of Catalan speakers. It’s normal a co-oficial language gets the support of the region: it happens in Wales and Galicia, the Basque country and pretty much everywhere; it’s a sign of a rich heritage and it shouldn’t be lost.
Yes, and maybe 1 in 1000 people gets offended if you don’t speak catalan. Who cares, most likely they don’t speak your language either.
- Classes are taught in Catalan to help children become bilingual. It is not a must and every school has the right to decide how they want to teach their kids.
- Having the subject of “Spanish language” at school doesn’t mean learning to speak it but learning to analyze it and break it down: grammar, history, sentence construction and spelling. This is also done in Valencian and Catalan and it helps understand the tool language is and get more out of it. I can strip a sentence down to the letter and know the function of every part in it, however I know many English-speaking people who hardly know what an adjective is.
- Regarding Mary’s comments, education in Spain in general is at a scarily low level. I came here from Eastern Europe at the age of ten and instantly realized I was a couple years ahead of my peers. It took me exactly 6 months to learn the language from zero and be the first in the class. However, parents have a lot to do with the situation, because I finished my education here and still know more than the average Spaniard, not because I’m a genius, but because my parents made sure I had the opportunity to see things in depth and develop an interest in culture and knowledge.
The problem is the public workers’ status in the country; once they pass their qualifying exam and get a destination where to work, they can’t be fired and so they keep teaching with no motivation or interest. It happens not only in schools but also in every government building in Spain. No need to wonder where the queues and long waits come from. The system needs to be changed, and more people to have access to these positions.
- Regarding John Smith’s comments, I believe children repeat chants they don’t unerstand, and I also believe those chants come from a bunch of supporters with a big inferiority complex. Their simple minds believe the smaller needs to shout louder in order to be heard, and after winning, the first thing to do is to go stick it to the big man. It’s a ridiculous reaction and it makes them look pathetic. However there are plenty fans who aren’t like that and it’s just not fair to label everyone under that theory. I do agree they should be erradicated at an early age, but public workers can’t be bothered!
Barcelona is a wonderful city and Catalans are not obssessive language maniacs. The province is full of immigrants and Spain is learning to accept immigration. This country is undergoing a very necessary process. Destination: multiculture and tolerance.
Comment by Stam on 19 June 2009:
By the way Claudia, that comment is 100% that of a person who doesn’t speak, respect or intend to learn Catalan. I’m not saying it’s the actual situation, I’m saying it’s what you sound like. It also sounds pretty ridiculous coming from an English speaker
Comment by lemon on 23 July 2009:
To John Smith:
Shops that only have this things in English shoould be fined, yes, because by law they are required to have it both in Spanish and in Catalan. If a shop has its signs only in Spanish, it can be fined. If a shop has its signs only in Catalan, it can be fined (there haven’t been any case, I have never seen a shop with only signs in catalan, althoug I have seen many without any catalan signs), and if a shop has its signs only in english, then it can be fined (don’t know if even double fined, for lacking both Spanish and Catalan signs).
Many, many times I have been attended in Spanish although I wanted to be attended in Catalan. But as I can speak both, it’s not a big problem (although it’s at least a lack of respect to me, not being able no speak my native language, which is as way one of the two official languages here).
Part of my family does not come from Catalunya, and they don’t speak Catalan, of course. Never any of them had any problem, anywhere, speaking Spanish.
And, about catalan kids not knowing the Spanish geography… well, it’s sad, of course, but you can as well talk about “spanish kids not knowing the Spanish geography”, because it’s a fault of the general Spanish education system, and kits from other regions have exactly the same problem.
I, and most of my catalan friends, can speak and write spanish perfectly, of course much better than most kids from any other spanish-speaking-only region can. Catalan people from my generation can speak spanish as well as people from any other region. Catalan kids today speak spanish as bad as kids from any other region. Perhaps not better, but not worse either (and knowing one language more is always good). El saber no ocupa lugar.
Comment by Diego on 12 January 2010:
Hi guys,
I do understand that most of you find catalan language useless. I am catalan and I agree that it is useless! The problem is that catalan is my mother tongue and it was for at least 4 generations in my family. I love the language because is part of me, my family, my culture and my nation.
But talking about useless: how useful Swedish, Hungarian, Norwegian, Finish and other languages are out of their respective countries? Should we try to impose just a few languages worldwide? Boring, init?
Comment by Jeremy Holland on 3 February 2010:
@ Diego – Hello, Diego. I wouldn’t call Catalan useless, especially if you plan on making Barcelona or Catalunya home. You have every right to be proud of your language, culture and land. Like you I love the sound. My biggest problem is the debate is presented as either/or many times and I feel there are other solutions that neither put one language above the other or has the decision imposed by the government.
I come from California where there is no official language. Spanish and English have lived side-by-side, not to mention many more languages. Look at these examples of how different ways to teach bilingual education.
http://www.cal.org/jsp/TWI/SchoolSearch.jsp
http://www.dual-language.org/
Comment by Marialuisa on 7 February 2010:
Catalan is no less useless than any other language- it is the mother tongue of millions of people who have a right to converse in their own language, to be respected-
Switzerland has 4 national languages- they are suppported, taught in schools, spoken in the streets- and this country has less people than Catalonia has.
The attitude of the Spanish centralistic government is to blame for the tension- a bit of goodwill would take a lot of the tension away-. If you are more or less told your language is worthless and not wanted- no wonder people feel attacked.
Comment by Jordi on 10 February 2010:
Catalonia is in Spain?…yeah!, so far politically still is though, emotionally many of us don’t feel it that way.
I guess it is an action-reaction thing, Why Welsh study their language, why Irish do the same, Brettons, Corsicans, Vasques, Gallegos et cetera?…because that is what identify us and we refuse to loose it.
You are not a Catalan, Spaniard, French, English, Irish…You feel that you are that thing and, once you do that, then you take things that help you to understand that thing that you feel, like language, political symbols ( flags,national anthems), music, poetry, gastronomy et cetera, all those things make you Catalan, American, Japananese etc, things that you don’t feel you don’t pay too much attention to them, I guess that’s why we don’t care much about the Spanish language ( though I’m not saying that is not important to learn it )
Comment by Cuilean on 19 February 2010:
I’m not Catalan or Spanish, but the only way to learn a language is to speak it. However, banning speaking Catalan is reverting to what Franco did. Instead of forcing one language to be spoken in favour of another, it might be better to encourage the speaking of Castellano as a game and gradually building up it’s use. That is how I am learning Catalan and it is working very well. Keeps things fun and rewarding, so the children have a better chance of learning.
Let them speak Catalan if they cannot communicate something any other way, then help them to say it in Castellano if need be.
Comment by Maxime on 1 March 2010:
It is a very interesting discussion about the language diversity and education. I am Canadian and my childrend are taught through the Canadian system abroad. I did want to put my children in the system here but I found out that the Education system standards are lower. I would have put my children in Private school but it was too expensive. I have had the opportunity to speak to several Catalans and they advised me to keep my children in the system and just enroll my children in language training Courses here. I have experience the same situation in reference to children not being taught the essentials in Geography from an experience with my daughter´s friend. She was talking about a child who born in another country that is not part of Spain (Unfortunately she was refering to the “Basque country”.) In other words she really did think that the Basque country was not in Spain. That is really scary. My children has the opportunity to learn about Every country in the world through the Canadian system and not just about North America. By limiting language and knowledge we make our future generation Ingnorant and less tolerant. We are at this moment trying to get used to the Catalan life and we are making a lot of friend whether from Catalonia, Basque, Madrid, and other regions. It is unfortunate that other autonomous provinces could not do the same.
Comment by a catalan on 10 March 2010:
I am Catalan, I have now lived in England for 7 years, so I happen to be trilingual. I also studied in Catalonia in the 90 and 00s so I know what it is like to be educated under the lingusitical inmersion.
My spanish is perfect.
I only studied 1-2 hours max a week in school, yes, that much is true. But I read the classics and studied the grammar(in a far more comprehensive manner than English children learn English grammar). I also studied Latin, classical Greek, English and achieved a university degree. And BTW, I know my rivers, and the mountains and provincies and capitals, and not only of Spain. I am not a genius, or especially intelligent; it’s simply that the immersion system works. You do learn both languages. Because when children are not in school they watch televison, or movies, or read books, the great majority in Spanish.
We immerse the children in Catalan in school because Spanish is predominant everywhere else. Without Catalan immersion in school, the children of Spanish speaking parents would never be able to learn Catalan in the same way that Catalan speaking children can learn Spanish – from their enviroment.
We are a nation that has suffered many kinds of repression. We have been “banned” many times in the past. My mother used to be slapped in school if found speaking Catalan to her friends. It is our responsibility to respect and protect our culture and language. It is not unreasonable to expect people living in Catalunya to, at the very least, respect this fact.